Pelicar Fantasy RPG Forum

Public => The Adventurer's Guild => Topic started by: Cope on May 28, 2007, 05:11:38 PM

Title: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 28, 2007, 05:11:38 PM
This guy is called the spider......

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pBuo2lBDUk[/youtube]
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 28, 2007, 05:27:02 PM
I see Einstein using a style similar to these 2 guys.........this is a good fight.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJsn4HYsBuo[/youtube]
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on May 28, 2007, 06:21:57 PM
Here's a thought.  What if we did the opposite of what we've been talking about?  We have generalized/slashing/broadsword.  As mentioned before this covers a lot of different looks.  What if we had generalized/brawling/striking.  It covers a these different styles regaudless of foot/fist/claw etc.  Different races would still have a different base damage.  You could still get an extra half in some cases and you could still take a form of two-weapon fighting.

You could also have a grappling multi-skill, that would let you build up to some of the cool stuff.  Including escaping from another grappler. 
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on May 29, 2007, 02:05:40 PM
Am I missing something? Is there an image or data that is not making it through my firewall? Who is spider?
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 29, 2007, 02:21:59 PM
DJ, there should be 2 youtube videos on my posts above.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Fingers on May 29, 2007, 03:14:25 PM
OK I finally got to watch these two fights and yes i would love to see us incorporate some form of mma fighting into the system.  But, I have a problem with this being the way Einstein fights.  First and foremost you never put anyone in a hold.  Second you never take anyone down to the ground and lastly do you change up your damage for knees, kicks, fists, elbows and headbutts( I know you do headbutts and fists seperately but what about the others) cause I see them all being 1 point of weapon damage unless special racial abilities augment them?  One thing I will give Einstein, is he is brawling and not specified so using all these attacks would be potentially feasible, but two handed fighting is weapon specific ( fist/fist, fist /kick, fist/headbutt( for those who don't get it free) so if you go switching things up you would loose attacks. Also when grappling you would loose all attacks save the free headbutt.

Ok to get to the problem I see:
Brawling is too all encompassing.  To me the way we use brawling today is the same as generalized except you may only use natural body parts.  I think brawling, as we use it, is so close to being generalized that it might as well be.  The classified should be split into two areas, grappling and striking, whereas the individual weapon may then be specified in.

Grabbing someone in a hold or striking someone for damage are easily as different as jabbing someone with a dagger or slashing someone with it.  If weapons are this restricted, so then should natural weapons be as well.

I think the "natural weapon" character should have to choose whether they are goung to be good at striking for damage or at grappling.  To be good at both you should have to train at both which basically means that in a "I do damage, you do damage" fight, the MMA fighter won't do as much damage as someone of equal level( due to the fact that they have spent some points on grappling training rather than striking).  So... the grappling aspect has to slow the opponents ability to do damage enough to make it an advantage to learn.

As it is I don't believe that just because you are able to punch or kick the shit out of someone you should be just as good at putting them in a hold.  Grappling should be it's own classified and from there we add in special ablilties and means of doing greater damage or incapacitation.  Can these abilities over lap some, sure... I could easily see penalties for the striking style and or bonuses for the grappler and vice versa for other pertinent skills.  I think again that these should stay complimentary skills that have a level restriction.  As I see these skills totaling 4-5 total, I don't think multi-skills are the way to go.  Either they will be way too easy to pick up at low levels, cause there are so few, or they will be way too costly(skill points wise) because of all the b/s one is forced to take to get to a G manuever.

Yeah I've had my though processes interrupted many times and i know this post is kinda all over the place.  I have not meant to pick on anyone (Cope/Einstein) and I cannot seem to focus well enough to keep some of this from sounding like i am angry.  I'm not and only wanted to put in my two cents in hopes that it may shed some light on the way I view MMA in Pelicar.  However, we decide to go with it won't bother me I just want everyone to think through how some of the suggested changes will affect the balance with those using weapons. 
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on May 29, 2007, 04:03:24 PM
I got no tube...but I'm at work, so I'll check them out from the house tonight.


(Got no tube, but I got a working banana)  :banana:
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 29, 2007, 04:14:17 PM
I somewhat disagree with Darren and I am not angry or pissed (some of this may come off that way)

Brawling is exactly the same as launching or jabbing or hurling. It defines a range of weapons that you can use. Brawling weapons are the person's body. Yes, Einstein went fist-fist when he took 2-weapon fighting and if the only way that you can visualize that is similar to playing Nintendo's Mike Tyson's Punchout so be it. I tend to visualize it differently. It doesn't change the mechanics of the game. It is simply my imagination. (To me he uses all of his body to help him do the most damage possible. If he has to put a person in the Thai clinch to slam a headbutt, he does. It is part of that attack.)

Do you really think that Mat doesn't do cool things with the bow that aren't necessarily covered under the rules or the mathematical mechanisms that have been put in place. That would seem VERY boring to me. (I see Mat doing stuff like shooting 2 arrows, or getting someone's attention by acting like his bow is broken, or fake charging into battle to get an opponent to leave the melee for a better shot. None of these are covered in written rule. Its just my view. I could be wrong and he could be very robotic - 1,2,3 shoot, 1,2,3 shoot.....)

And now to your argument of either or grappling or striking. Okay, I agree with that, but THOSE ARE NOT classified slots in my view. They are specialized slots in brawling and should get the +8.

A person could go straight jabbing and be very dangerous with any jabbing weapon, or that same person could go specified with spear and be extremely dangerous with a spear. Therefore, someone could take brawling and be dangerous at both grappling and striking, or someone could specialize in striking and be extremely dangerous in that. (The guy with the spear is still going to bash with a shield or shove with his body or headbutt to do damage. The brawler is still going to hit, or kick, or grab, or bite, or poke to do damage. These "points" of damage are implicit in the mechanics of our damage system.)

A long time ago, Head brought up a very interesting thought, we have our system a little backwards. He stated something like........is it easier to learn jabbing with one weapon or jabbing with every possible weapon. I have never been to a training class or practice where you worked with every conceivable combination. Usually, you focus on 1-2 things and then hope to extrapolate the learning to other topics.

And lastly, I think if you reread my earlier posts you will see that I do NOT want rule additions. At the most I have said we could build a multi-skill to bring into affect some things. The rest of it is how I visualize MY imaginary character. It doesn't effect or affect anyone else or game mechanics or balance.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on May 29, 2007, 04:25:52 PM
I guess I'm just a dick, but what are we discussing here? Are we actually wanting to implement a rule change or add skill and/or maneuvers? Or are we just discussing how an Earthly fight can be described with Pelicar's rules?
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 29, 2007, 04:41:19 PM
I'm discussing how an earthly fight can be viewed as a Pelicar skill. I may have messed up when I started this thread, it was actually a continuation of Darren's topic on grappling damage.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on May 29, 2007, 04:45:19 PM
Ok, I was confused. I know you said you didn't want to add rules, but it almost seemed like a rules argument. If there was arguing, I wanted to join in. LOL!
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Fingers on May 29, 2007, 05:03:39 PM
Terry I do visualize things a little more the way you do as brawling is more MMA style striking and kicking and such, but the only real damage you do is with your trained weapon( for game balance).  If you are actually rolling around on the ground or hanging on to their head, then how is your opponent still using that great weapon against you?  It aint happenin. 

If I remember correctly, grappling is it's own attack mode, which means it resets attack sequences, and is "supposed to be the only "attack" allowed for the series.

I realize that jabbing teaches you to attack in a stlye with all weapons used in that style.  I have no problem with "brawling" adding to whatever natural attack someone choses to use when "striking".  I don't see brawling teaching you to do both, striking and grappling.  To me that's learning two classified styles of combat in one.  To me the way this should be handled as things currently work is just like if you were wielding a weapon.  Weapon Catch and you can grab someone's weapon arm, use drive to make them fall, or dismount to pull some one from a horse, with all the penalties and bonuses that come with those actions.  Without these skills you have to revert back to the grappling rules which state that this is your only action and only generalized should count toward performing these grappling actions, just like everyone else. 

Quote from cope below:
A long time ago, Head brought up a very interesting thought, we have our system a little backwards. He stated something like........is it easier to learn jabbing with one weapon or jabbing with every possible weapon. I have never been to a training class or practice where you worked with every conceivable combination. Usually, you focus on 1-2 things and then hope to extrapolate the learning to other topics.

No, it's not as easy and that's why for the same number of points/time spent you get +8 with the individual weapon rather than +6 for the group of weapons?  Is that enough difference, I don't know, but it really can make a difference over 10 levels.

And yes there were posts made after I wrote this so try to take it in context. 

In that previous post you had mentioned 3 skills to add, a hold and a throw and something if I remember correctly.  And yes I was continuing that discussion.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on May 29, 2007, 05:17:30 PM
Quote from: Fingers on May 29, 2007, 05:03:39 PM
...I don't see brawling teaching you to do both, striking and grappling...
Our system is closed to its styles, and therefore is hard to visualize how other "earthly" styles work similarly to Pelicar fighting. However, since brawling is about teaching you how to use your own body as a weapon, it would have to be akin to "all martial arts." However, since it is not specialized, it would not teach any specific type, but through brawling one could learn the basics of karate, a heavily strike oriented style; but also, it would teach jujitsu, which has many grappling maneuvers. If it can be equated to anything, it is probably more like the roman-graeco wrestling, which did have both strike and grappling, and is what much of Spartan organized combat was derived from (if I am remembering my history martial arts correctly).

So, now we see the trouble with trying to extrapolate specifics from something rather general. Probably the guy with one brawling slot from the East doesn't fight the same way as the guy with one brawling slot from the West. However, once each of them has five or six slots, they could each fight with a variety of different moves, but tend to have their personal favorites...
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Fingers on May 29, 2007, 05:30:53 PM
I agree with all the visualization stuff and how "martial arts" works that it is a combination.   But.   I think if you allow two styles of combat rules to be learned for the cost of one skill it unbalances the rules.  Visualization/reality or not.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 29, 2007, 06:47:49 PM
Darren at first I was going to write a very nasty response to your 2 posts, but I got home and relaxed a little, ate a little, so I wrote a post and it came off sarcastic, so I have now rewritten it.................

I feel like you are completely missing my point, which happens a lot on this board. I agree with you that only certain things can happen inside the rules. Fine, okay, I get it, you want everything by the book and by the numbers. Nothing that I have stated goes against any of this.

By the book, you see Einstein like this.......

He attempts to hit his opponent with his fists twice every series and then on alternate series he includes a headbutt attack. Otherwise, he is hoping that his opponent doesn't roll high enough to hit him. This equals 2 attacks per series with the fist and 1/2 attack with the headbutt. All is good.

With a little imagination, I see....

Einstein circles his opponent who is using a rather large sword. All of a sudden, he rushes in and grasps a shoulder with his left as he swings a mighty right. He then rolls his shoulder, ducking a blow aimed at his head. Then he throws a huge upper-cut left, followed by a slight shove to increase distance between him and the swordsman.

With a grin on his face, he stares at the swordsman. With the knowledge that he will best the swordsman he charges in and startles the swordsman with a quick clinch of the the neck and delivers a bone shattering head-butt. Losing the grip of the clinch, Einstein takes a skillful cut from the sword and gets kicked in the shin. Now, he balances on his toes looking for an opening.........Feinting to the left, Einstein charges forward with 2 wildly thrown, yet accurate punches.

So 2 series with the same amount of attacks as the first one.............
He used a simple grasp and the thai clinch.......all in temporary support of his abilities...........

Its all imaginary. Read Lew's post, he says that sometimes Irving does damage with the hilt of his great weapon. Irving doesn't have that skill, is Lew cheating or going against the rules..........NO. If I think Einstein, temporarily puts an opponent into a Thai clinch to headbutt, are you saying that I am wrong and that's cheating?

I hope my changes removed some of the sarcasm, I really think we are talking about 2 completely different things, I see Einstein as a combination as Wanderlei Silva and Quintain Jackson. Both strike, rush the opponent and fight with a joy and somewhat composed wrecklessness.

You are talking about rules and that I can't see my character that way because it goes against the rules. Now, I really don't think that is what you meant and I hope you can see my point now.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Fingers on May 29, 2007, 10:14:34 PM
Cope, I have not meant to upset you and I can see your visualizations being real and actually in game.  As long as the visualizations do not change the physics of allowed outcomes, none of this matters. 

We were talking about different things.  You... I like to think of this style as the way my character fights, that's cool.  That's completely fine, I just think that such visualizations may open a potential can of worms if we don't define the differences between grappling and striking.   I am talking about grappling that affects the combat.  partial holds, or tripping or throwing.  So long as a brawler is not allowed to throw someone out of the way or hamper their ability to fight without using specific skills or reverting to pure grappling rules I'm great with visualizing the Thai clench, a grabbed shoulder or a shove this way  or that in how Einstein does damage.

Again I was not trying to say that they are a stick figure standing stiff and boxing with a head butt every now and then.  It's just that those are the only ones that have any real numerical effect to the combat.  A swordsman feints parries and strikes blows through the combat that do not count numerically as well.  Hell they can fight with a sword in each hand but without the proper skills they do no more numerically than the guy wielding one. 

Anyway, I like your visualizations and yes I do the same with my characters.  Mat standing up on his horse so he can get a better shot.  Does that actually change the bonuses, hell no but it's fun to view it that way.  So I do get what you were talking about.

Again I do apologize for not being able to talk about something on here without causing flaming tempers.  That is never my intention.

Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 29, 2007, 10:57:09 PM
Whatever, you like to be right all of the time, we all do....and if we can't be right we want to argue, my favorite part........ ;D

Please realize that I have the ONLY current PC that any of the grappling/brawling/striking talk really affects and I have repeatedly stated to LEAVE it alone. Grappling needs to be left weak (why, because it is completely outside our current combat rules), unless someone wants to take the time to completely rewrite the grappling rules. I do not think it is worth it. I do see room for minor additions but these additions must drive the player to make hard decisions with their skill points, which is why I see a multiskill or 2-3 complimentary skills.

You would think that if it would give me a leg up that I would be all for it.....but if I think we should leave it alone.....I expect every player to be an advocate for their character's styles. I don't want Darren or Lew making all of the decisions (That is unfair to them and everyone)..........each person has the responsibility to enhance your character. If you get something passed that completely unbalances the game in your favor, then shame on the rest of us......and hopefully the GM royally fucks us with it in the first available fight. Then we can change the rule back and roll up new characters.......

Good night fellas..........
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Fingers on May 29, 2007, 11:13:24 PM
Night T.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on May 30, 2007, 10:50:33 AM
I remember the ancient days of playing under Russel Keck (last name could be wrong, no relation to Joanna's Keck), something like what we are talking about came up.  Someone, maybe Russ himself, was talking about all these neat little moves with a staff.  Well, I had a character who used a staff, imagine that Lew was playing a mage.  Well, I told Russ these special little moves that I wanted to use and he ended up giving me all kinds of extra attacks.

How should it have been run?  Well we all know now.  Visualize what ever clever thing you want.  Make your one d20 roll on you initiative, as someone who plays a fighter if you hit and roll a d6 or something for damage.

There is a lot that a bunch of numbers can't represent.  We have a constant issue of what engaged fighter lines look like.  We don't need rules, as long as everyone is reasonable.  "Lew, my character is trying to get to their mage."  "O.K, it won't be this series, but next series you'll be able to maneuver to have a clear run at him." or "Terry, the monster is trying to get past you, your not sure you can hold him", Terry: "speaking: Helix, here he comes!'  Point is, you all generally trust me as a GM and trust me to make in combat decisions that numbers can't. 

It's the same on an individual level.  On you initiative you roll a dice and hope to give me damage, but if Irving is delivering a massive overhead swing, or hooking the opponent with the axe and pulling him into his spiked plate mail, it doesn't matter.  If we come up with special maneuvers for everything that is possible, that's all the game will be.  We'll end up with "Irving is making a horizontal swing with his axe about head level."  Let's see that's +10 on the attack and minus one to my next initiative, blah, blah, blah.  Like Head says "Just hit it".
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Head on May 30, 2007, 03:43:40 PM
Two parts to combat I feel.. the visual, imaginary part of it, and the boring, mathematical mechanics that are necessary to put a number to the amount of attacks and damage being done.  (in computer games, the computer takes care of all this "busy" dice rolling, save checking, spell targetting work).

When Henry was swinging around and poking things with his Trident... I see the initiative and damage as just a numerical value to what he's done so far.  That 17 points or whatever could be viewed as one huge hit or just a bunch of little cuts and scrapes over that period of time... I mean, how many times can you actually jab at something in 10 seconds... lot more than 1 or 2.  If you wanted to visualize it this way, the only time you actually land that one heavy single blow is a crit. 

Ok there, I at least have a post in this thread...  ;D
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 30, 2007, 03:45:34 PM
Nice visualization Head......ok now I have a post in this thread......errr.....
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on May 30, 2007, 04:17:39 PM
Another good point. :boogie:

ones - jab / two's -jab / three's duck / fours feint / fives 18 points Lew / sixes step-jab / seven's - 24 points of damage Head / eights  wobble / nines jab step / tens step into Fred's out reached hand.

Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on May 30, 2007, 04:20:06 PM
It's better to think in these terms for visualization. Otherwise, everyone just stands around staring at each other between 2's and 6's...

      When's the GM gonna call nines?
      /
:Minotaur:
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on May 30, 2007, 04:21:55 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Cope on May 30, 2007, 04:30:36 PM
Holding all attacks is a very impressive strategy. I think you range guys should try it.......
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on Jun 04, 2007, 10:53:26 AM
One of my goals is to have a draft of advanced grappling skills ready for review.  My goal is not for them to be in effect then, but we'll see.  I half expect we will choose not to use whatever I write up and that is fine.  We all really want to make a real effort to create effective rules for this style of combat, so I will give it a try.  I'm not going to bring up each step for review though.  I'll try to have a good chunk of possible rules done, so we can analyze them as a whole.

I'm pretty sure I'm going the multi-skill route.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on Jun 04, 2007, 10:56:25 AM
Multi-skills and combat maneuvers are probably headed for a collision course...
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on Jun 04, 2007, 11:02:24 AM
I know, we'll see what happens.  I'm not real optimistic about this anyway, but I want to try.
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Dj on Jun 04, 2007, 12:51:23 PM
FYI: Since it came up at a few significant times this weekend, I thought I'd mention we forget to apply racial modifiers to standing time.

Time to stand is a base 2 seconds assuming the character is unencumbered.  This time is then modified by armor worn, race and encumbrance.
Racial modifiers are as follows:
minotaur; +2 seconds
tigara;       -1 second
dwarf;      +1 second
equirda;   +2 seconds


(However, as Lew re-writes the grappling stuff, this comment may become moot)
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Fingers on Jun 04, 2007, 12:57:34 PM
Oh yeah I forgot about those!
Title: Re: Different fighting/grappling styles
Post by: Lew on Jun 04, 2007, 01:01:19 PM
I was assuming people were remembering them, but I wasn't really paying attention.